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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 10:13:35 GMT -5
This will be a comparison between the top 5 fighters, by division, in two categories: greatness (legacy) and head to head.
I suspect some lists will feature the same fighters, and I believe some will not... I know all lists will have the usual suspects...
It will take some thought, so go by division, or just stick to the divisions with whiich you're most familiar...
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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 11:07:05 GMT -5
Bantamweights:
ATG Status:
1. Eder Jofre- 72-2-4 (50)
NBA champ- 8 defenses, 6 defenses as World champ. Dominated bantam until battles with making the weight led to decision loss to Harada... Retired after draw with Manny Elias and return decision loss to Harada again... Came back to win feather title...
2. Carlos Zarate 61-4 (58) (boxrec says 66-4 (63))
WBC champ, 9 defenses. One of the hardest punchers, pound for pound, ever to put the gloves on... Finally lost a controversial decision to stablemate Lupe Pintor, and was so disgusted by the decision, he quit the game for 7 years...
3. Manuel Ortiz 96-28-3 (49) (boxrec says 98-29-3 (52))
World champ 15 defenses, interrupted by decision loss to Harold Dade, won it back in immediate return, and made 4 more defenses... Fought and whipped a TON of other fighters as champ, but not as title defenses...
4. Rueben Olivares 88-13-3 (78)
World champ 2 defenses, TKO loss on cuts to Castillo, even on the cards as of the 14th round. Won it back from Castillo after a tune-up, making 2 more defenses... Another one of the hardest punchers, pound for pound, in history... Truly scary left hook, and could play good defense when he felt like it.
5. Jeff Chandler 33-2-2 (18)
World champ for 9 defenses... Big for a bantam, tall and long, but liked to do his work on the inside, counterpunching. Also adept at outside fighting, had a hard punch as well.
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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 11:27:48 GMT -5
Bantamweight
Head to Head:
Copy and paste from previous. I see no reason to go into rating differently or including others... There are honorable mentions that could be given, but these guys are monsters, and I have trouble envisioning any other bantams consistently beating any of the 5 I listed.
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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 11:37:48 GMT -5
Jr. Featherweight ATG Status: 1. Wilfredo Gomez 44-3-1 (42)End list. Just kidding, but he is so clearly the greatest at this weight that it's almost silly to compare... 17 defenses, ALL by KO... Unbelievable fighter. Just a quick list of fighters at the weight who are all up for subjective debate: Marco Antonio Barrera Erik Morales Wilfredo Vasquez And everyone else... Someone could do some research into this, but this is mainly a stopover for featherweight, and few fighters stay here and make any noise... Sorry about the lack of depth.
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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 11:56:27 GMT -5
Jr. Featherweight
Head to Head Status:
1. Wilfredo Gomez - It's hard seeing someone give him more than intermittent trouble at this weight, but some could, as he could be dropped, but good luck trying to outbox him, and God help you if you try to outslug him...
2. Jeff Fenech - Maniacal attack and supreme conditioning, great chin and great strength makes him a tough pill to swallow for anyone...
3. Marco Antonio Barrera - Could box and brawl, counterpunch or lead, a very well-rounded fighter with great conditioning and patience...
4. Erik Morales - Basically tie with MAB... Can box and brawl, probably the harder puncher, but not quite as versatile or consistent.
5. Daniel Zaragoza - Proven resume over 66 fights... Fought high level of opposition, and is a handful for just about anyone...
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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 13:00:48 GMT -5
Featherweight:
ATG Status:
1. Willie Pep 229-11-1 (65)
2 defenses of World championship and seemingly countless non-title wins during reign... Fought and beat just about everyone, and not only a defensive master, he was an aggressive boxer who could lead or counter... Really a master of all... Saddler caught him after his nearly fatal airplane crash, and by most accounts, had lost something because of that incident, hence his being rated higher than Saddler, who beat him 3 out of 4...
2. Abe Attell 91-9-18 (53) 52 ND, 2 NC
18 (or 22, depending on the source) defenses from 1903-1912... Basically dominated contemporaries, even if you were to argue the prowess of the competition, he did just as well as you would imagine a modern favorite doing in the era, so that must be granted... How can you argue with that resume?
3. Salvador Sanchez 44-1-1 (32)
Lazer-guided precision and respectable power led to 9 defenses of WBC title. Cool under pressure, he could be outboxed for stretches and could also be troubled by tremendous pressure... Hit his stride once he started competing in the U.S....
4. Eusebio Pedroza 41-6-1 (25)
19 WBC defenses and 5 World defenses, fought high-quality opposition and had physical advantages over most feathers he fought... Great jab, great body work, good inside worker with good handspeed...
5. Danny Lopez 42-6 (39)
Arguably the hardest-punching featherweight ever; won first 21 fights by KO, the longest streak of any featherweight champion... KO % of 81 is only beaten by Hamed (arguably the second of the two hardest-punching feathers ever), but Lopez fought tougher opposition. 8 defenses of WBC title until he ran into Sanchez...
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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 13:37:41 GMT -5
Featherweight
Head to Head Status:
This is where our beloved game comes in... And I have an addendum for this division and up... I will rate 5 fighters, just like before, but will list up to 10 more honorable mentions (for a possible total of 15) that pertain to the game and who would be interesting or spoilers to have...
1. Willie Pep - Defensive whiz, yeah, yeah... But is also an underrated puncher... Hit harder on a p4p basis than Whitaker or Conn, or Greb... Tough as hell, but could be dropped and stopped...
2. Sandy Saddler - Feather that hit like a welter; unfairly big and strong for the weight, fought junior feathers and lightweights... A h2h monster and nightmare for anyone...
3. Salvador Sanchez - Always cool and in control, I tend to think of him as a faster, more athletic featherweight version of Monzon... Superb boxer, counterpuncher, and ring technician... Tough assignment for anyone.
4. Alexis Arguello - Really a junior lightweight/lightweight who could make the feather limit for a time, he hit unfairly heavily and was deadly accurate. He truly hit like a 135-140 lb'er...
5. Too tough to call. The rest will be honorable mentions....
Bobby Chacon - Tough maniac. Hard puncher. Beat the tar out of Danny Lopez, and was ahead on the cards against Arguello when stopped on cuts.
Rueben Olivares - Not as good at feather as he was at bantam, but sure fun to watch and competitive with alot of the top guys...
Danny Lopez - Too easy to hit to make the top 5, but is a must-have in the game... One-two merchant without much else in the arsenal, not much on defense, but when/if he lands that right cross, things get ugly for the other guy...
Eder Jofre - Went 25-0 in his featherweight comeback, making 1 defense against monster puncher (and h2h spoiler) Vicente Saldivar by KO4... I would have trouble betting against him, even at feather.
Azumah Nelson - A monster at the weight, was a fine defensive boxer with serious power. Great counterpunching skills, and a great set of whiskers... A very green version of Nelson gave Sanchez all he could handle before succumbing in the 14th, even as a late substitute...
--- The usual suspects of our era---
Marco Antonio Barrera Erik Morales Manny Pacquiao Naseem Hamed Juan Manuel Marquez
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Post by davek on Feb 17, 2011 14:07:24 GMT -5
Jr. Lightweight
This is going to be a short list of fighters in an overall sense, because alot of the greats that fought here, even though they may have done their best work here or were at their peak here, didn't stay and so I'll be concentrating on their work at lightweight...
1. Julio Cesar Chavez - Did his best work here, and probably at his best...
2. Alexis Arguello - See above...
3. Hector Camacho - See above again...
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Post by davek on Feb 24, 2011 9:45:04 GMT -5
Lightweight:
ATG Status:
1. Roberto Duran 103-16 (70)
7 years, 12 defenses with tons of non-title destructions in the same period... He was the complete prize fighter. Dominated the lightweight scene for as long as he campaigned there.
2. Joe Gans 120-8-9 (85) 18 ND (boxrec says 140-10-16 (96) 16 ND)
14 defenses over 2 reigns, two years on each run, he fought everyone, and was considered at the time to be quite the scientific boxer. He brought skill to another level of an era of one punch at a time, clinch-filled, brawls (for the most part). Hard puncher and counterpuncher, able to figure opponents out and then deliver the knockout.
3. Benny Leonard 85-5-1 (69) 121 ND (boxrec says 91-5-1 (71) 117 ND
"The Ghetto Wizard" had 8 defenses over 8 years... Was a slick and hard-hitting fighter who fought and beat most lightweights in a very talent-dense era. Could be, and was, dropped quite a bit, but only stopped 4 times in over 200 fights as verification of his defensive skills and movement. It's been said that noone had ring generalship or "wheels" like Leonard. He was quite a mover (and a puncher, for that matter).
4. Ike Williams 126-24-5 (60) (boxrec: 127-24-4 (61) 1 ND)
NBA 3 defenses, World 4 defenses, all over 6 years... Boxer or brawler, he could do it all... Had a sturdy chin for the most part, superb skills, excellent jab, right hand, hook, uppercuts, you name it... Ike hit much harder than his record would suggest. He fought in a seriously deep (probably the deepest and most talent-rich and toughest ever) lightweight era. Fought (and alot of times, beat) welterweights, including Kid Gavilan, Johnny Bratton, Joe Micelli, Chuck Davey, Gil Turner, and Carmen Basilio.
5. Pernell Whitaker 40-4-1 (17)
IBF, WBC, WBA, World Champion (at various stages) for 8 defenses in all... (I combined defenses because if a fighter has a minor title, but defends until unification, I count that as total defenses) Faced serious opposition and hardly lost a round on the cards along the way... Would have been champion sooner, but was blatantly robbed the first time against Ramirez... A defensive genius, had excellent skills in or out, fine jab, and a little pop... Had to fight boredom sometimes in the ring because he was so much better than his opposition...
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Post by davek on Feb 24, 2011 10:22:14 GMT -5
Lightweights:
Head to Head:
Note: This is one of the deepest and greatest divisions ever with a legacy demand for respect equal to the other great divisions... I find it very difficult to rate these fighters in a list head to head, because I think on this level, anyone in the top 10 could beat any of the others on a given night...
1. Pernell Whitaker - Defense can't be overlooked, and had enough sting to keep you honest... I personally think he beats Duran, but loses to Williams and maybe Armstrong... 2. Roberto Duran - An all-around technician who's only fault is that he could be outboxed for stretches... Overrated punching power generally, and was really a doubles to triples-type of hitter... Relied mostly on an accumulation of punches, but did take some out late with one big shot, so he did have good power, just not like some suggest.
3. Ike Williams - Just a magnificent fighter. Could beat anyone at the weight ever. He could be outhustled and outboxed, and could be dropped or KO'd as well... Overall, just a fighting machine...
4. Henry Armstrong - Jumped around so much in weight, it's hard to know where his best weight was, but I think lightweight was his most comfortable division. He had unthinkable stamina and pressure, and was an underrated puncher. Better defensively than generally accepted. Was hittable, but had a great chin and punched from every angle and hit everywhere; he was constantly in motion. A nightmare for anyone.
5. Beau Jack - Uncanny pressure, fighting in the same era as the Williams who he went 1-2-1 (L TKO6, L SD15, D10, L TKO8) and with Armstrong (W UD10), he also beat many welters, including the tough-as-Hell Fritzie Zivic twice (W UD10, W UD12); a feat Armstrong failed (L UD15, L TKO12, W UD10). Could be hurt, outboxed, KO'd, outbanged, and outsped, but was always strong and tough.
I'll say that I could tie the #5 spot with Jack, Bob Mongomery (another of the triad of lightweight badasses who split fights with Jack and Williams and Zivic, Chavez, Arguello, Canzoneri, and Ortiz...
All of them deserve top honors. That's basically the top 10.
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Post by davek on Feb 26, 2011 20:52:24 GMT -5
Okay, Beau Jack shouldn't be in the top 5 H2H lightweight list, but I'm just kind of high on him right now...
There are others that would consistently beat him, but whatever... He's a tough, durable guy... Ortiz or Canzoneri should probably have that spot, on reflection...
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